Here's a BASA fan's attempt to make things right. What do you all think?
Analysis:
Rec- Supposed to be played by those teams learning the game. Newly formed teams with little experience at the game.
Solution:
Zero homeruns and an inning ending out!!!!
Super Rec- Supposed to be played by those teams with skills not quite ready for the biggest stage. To be played by previously established, family-oriented teams that want to compete weekly, but not on the biggest stage.
Solution:
Three homeruns and an inning ending out!!!! Hopefully the "true sandbaggers" will decide to move up.
Competitive- Played by the Premire/Elite teams of the BASA circuit. The well-established teams fight it out for dominance and pride.
Solution:
12 homeruns to protect the pitchers and add excitement!
These solutions won't solve all our problems, but they will make for three strong divisions that will make every weekend. It will also stop a fair amount of sandbagging.
PS.
The Rec and Super Rec games have an hour and 15 minutes time limit. Competitve has run-rule to keep them moving along. 20 after 3, 15 after 4, and 12 after 5.
What do you all think?????
WB # 24
Go hit some balls are something, rather go sit down.
End of the school year, so I have a little time to get on the board again.
I just want to play as much as possible on the circuit, but the current state of BASA won't allow that to happen. Looking for some feedback, what do you think Kev. ?
WB
WB how will you move a team that been together for a while and make no changes from hitting 3 homeruns to hitting 12....you will have to pick up homeruns hitters and there are not many automatic homerun hitters out there.....I like the inning ending out to make the game faster but the homeruns for super rec. should be at least 5 -8 to bring exictment as well because this is setting super rec. teams up to move up.....Rememebr all teams are not sand bagging. if all the teams are sand bagging who is going to be the first team to win a world at every level. has it been done? I love the idea of the bettering the assoc.!!!!!1
WBrown I think that the BASA Organization has brainstorm this topic before and that is where we are today. I like the Rec and Super Rec divisions but I think that we could even out the playing field with the Competitive teams so that teams like Graystone and BBQ do not have to drop down and play Super Rec rules. I think when they(competitive teams) have to play Super Rec rules that they rule should be like this; After each team has hit there 5 homeruns then they should be allowed to hit another 1(play the 1 up rule). The one up rule is you can hit a homerun but after you are up one homerun you can not hit another one until the other team hits one and this will even it out some. Give me your feedback, bro.
W.B., First of all I love the idea in theory, because it would allow for a greater number of teams at each level. But realistically I don't think the powers-at-be really care about making things equal across the board at each level. That much is obvious just judging by the amount of teams that were moved up to the next level this year. It definitely wasn't enough to keep the competitive division alive so that there are more tourneys at that level. Let's face it, the Rec & Super Rec is this organizations Cash Cow, just look at the number of teams, its well over 150 and they aren't going to do anything to shoot themselves in the foot like shaking up the divsions. I really do like the idea of an automatic 3 outs if you hit any home runs once they are gone. I do agree with a comment you made yesterday or the day before, playing competitive is a death sentence, and to make matters worse the people in charge could really care less about this level. I think there should be a coaches forum immediately after the world where the competitive coaches, Super Rec coaches can get together and sit down with the top BASA officials and figure out a happy medium to solving this issue so that it works long term. Just my 2 cent.
This is the feedback that I'm looking for. Thanks # 15 an NKOZONE for taking this seriously. I agree with both of your views, I just went at it in a drasctic kind of way to get feedback. Zero homeruns is a bit of a stretch and isn't very likely to happen, but it's a start. 5 - 8 homeruns in the Super Rec is too close to comp and teams are perfectly happy to be on the cusp of comp, but not have to face tough games from beginning to end.
Not trying to mislead anyone, I have a hidden agenda. I want some of the Super Rec teams to come to competitive so we can play too.
As far as Competitive being a dead division could not be further from the truth. It is just teams do not want to go up and play there. The majority of the BASA Tournaments are in the midwest. The majority of the competitive teams are in the south. If you were at the Birmingham tournament, there were at least 10-12 competitive teams (without Graystone, BBQ, B&B). Why would all these southern teams go to the midwest to play and when they play each other anyway down here. If there would be more teams in the midwest, you would see more of the southern teams that do not mind traveling, but as it stands, not many teams playing competitive up there. Division not dead, just not located in the midwest like some of you want. Just an opinion like everyone else. Take care WB#24
Taz, not sure how long you've been playing competitive but even when there were 10 to 15 competitive teams in the Midwest area, the southern competitive teams never traveled up this way (WZAK of Cleveland, Primetime out of Detroit, Jabalis, Louisville Stars, 14Kt gold of Dayton, Cincy Players, Daps/Taylor Made Cincy, Andrew Farms Tenn, Tennessee Stars, Raw Talent of Cincy.... teams from the North & Midwest have been asked to come south just have enough teams to play a decent competitive tourney for years without the southern teams returning the favor, at for the 10 years I've been playing. Its cool, but as long as that mentality stays the same this division will never flourish. If we could get each team to commit to playing 3 BASA's tourneys throughout the year plus the world, we could space them out so that one is in the North/Midwest (Cincy or Indy), 1 in the south (Atl or Birmingham), and 1 halfway between (Nashville), then we could have our tournaments. All it would take is some communication from the competitive coaches/sponsors and we could actually work this out ourselves instead of being left out. Just my 2 Cent.
What's happening WB? BASA can certainly have 3 viable divisions. As you've indicated, it would certainly require some rule changes to stop the sandbagging or force teams to compete in their appropriate divisions.
Some of the changes that I agree with, would be no homeruns in the rec. division. The division should be for newer teams, fun teams, work type teams etc. The majority of your teams should be in the middle or super-rec level. I think 4 or 5 homeruns would be appropriate for this level along with the inning ending out after that.
The competitive or upper level with 12 homeruns and inning ending out. With the right rule changes and proper enforcement of such changes, there's no reason why there should not be an adequate number of competitive teams at the BASA tourneys throughout the year.
One last change that would speed up the game and help to give pitchers some advantage on the mound. In all divisions, do not allow any foul balls after 2 strikes. After all, this is a hitter's game right!
With all the altered and/or illegal bats out here, let's do something to help them out. I'm not a pitcher, but I do understand the seriousness of someone getting hit on the mound. I'm sure Rodney aka PT30, Wolf, Church and the rest you that take that mound would agree.
Just my 2cents
willie this is ziggy from cityhitters the pitcher i agree but i think they should use NSA rules instead make rec 4homeruns super rec 6 homeruns comp 10 homeruns then use one up rule i think they should raise homeruns becaz with all these bats 3 homeruns are silly for rec and 5 for super rec all should be raised.
2 cents, I have played competitive/super rec for awhile. I agree with you, but where are those teams now? I played with the Pensacola Woodtoters for years before moving to Ga area, and we went to Wisconsin, Detroit, Kansas, etc when there was a tournament to go to. BASA was not around, nationally years ago and just now starting to spread out (Aiken). Birmingham always seem to be a big draw in all the brackets. There is no overnight solution, but there are teams that can lay up and just because they did not win the world, should not be the requirement. Can they score runs and play great defense? As stated earlier, only an opinion. I do not run anything.
Alton
ILA #32
I dont see why they dont break into 4 divisions instead of just two. Cause that competitive is basically just major. I would think maybe:
Rec- Newly formed teams not much experience. 0hrs.
Super rec- teams that have played a while but like to hit the ball down. 2 hrs.
Comp- Experienced hard hitting teams, who can do both hit for power, and hit down. 5 hrs.
Open- Power hitting teams that can hit the ball out whenever they please!! 12 hr
WB, great job on the finish this past weekend and I didn't get the package to you before I left.
I like the idea of the HR rules for rec and super rec. However, here is an idea... How about playing the competitive on baseball fields and let the competitive division swing away? Just an idea!
W.O.T.T
I dont think that changes in the classifications hrs should change but I do think that the basa could come up with a rule that a team can be monitored and bumped up or down accordingly during the season, and that all registered teams coaches/managers should sign a statement or classification waiver saying that you can be moved up or down prior to a cut off date, for sake of arguement July 15th, and that after that date, no new teams can register to play in the worlds and no changes can be made to the teams classification, and only 2 roster changes after that date, also the top 5-7 finishers in rec and super rec are mandatorily moved up the next season, and even if that team breaks up, if a team with 5 or more of the same guys from a team that was moved up comes out on a roster than that team has to play the division that the previous team would have had to play prior to the break up or re-naming of that team...and off the subject, I also think the basa should provide official score keepers to reduce conflict with the scores and hrs hit during a game (Primetime/Pace in Columbus) because not keeping an unbiased account of hrs may have not just effected that game but the entire competitive division in that world..(Primetime won a protest on a would be walk-off hr by Pace) not chosing a side but that situation could have been prevented, I just think that competitively speaking, there is too much at stake in the worlds to have the official book be in the home teams duggout, just my opinion...
What's up W.Brown, I think they should just get rid of competitive and combine the two. Give Super rec 8 homeruns with a out after homeruns are out, because most of those teams in Super rec can hit homeruns.
The reality is that you have plenty of players playing Super Rec that have the talent to play Competitive.
The reality of the situation is as long as the cat sleeps, the mice will play!!! The only way to ensure teams are playing on the level they should is proper monitoring. Bigg Dogg, I agree with what you said about moving the top 5-7 teams up from Rec and Super Rec after Worlds. Teams classifications should be revisited after a certain date and moved to there proper divisions. I liken the moveups of BBQ and Graystone to placing a band-aid on an amputated limb, it just ain't gonna work. More teams must be moved up to both upper divisions for the game to thrive. Contrary to popular belief, Super Rec is not the "Big Show"!!!
Awesome exchange of ideas, guy. I hope that the powers that be are monitoring our suggestions. I want BASA to be around when I'm 50 + years old. I want to play along side my son and show him how dad used to do it. Maybe I'll be a coach of a team, who knows....
It's a fact of life, that we'll get away with as much as an organization will allow us to. Everyone want to win world and if I can load up and play agaisnt "Lesser" teams, I will. There have to be some major handicaps applied to those teams that want to win by play out of classification.
I Look back at my New Image teams of the past, most of our games were over by the 2nd inning. All homeruns gone before we made it thru the line up once. We could have played up, but we didn't. We actually broke up as a result of that fact. Some of us wanted to step it up and some of us didn't.
Imagine:
Willie Brown
Duke Donaldson
Rhodney Donaldson
Eli Rosier
Ian Houston
Reggie Patterson (Big Swol)
Lo Taylor
J. G.
Boddie
Des Cole
Robert "1-9" Jackson (RIP)
Tracy Martin
Hateem
And a host of more talented players( Later Black Haze) waiting their turn: Walt, Mike Ray, Daryl Mitchell, Moriya, Robert Hill, Gregg, Big Worm, Tony Jackson, Shaun Hayes, etc.....
We all played together as a rec team for 2-3 years. Most of us are now playing Super rec or Comp. Teams complained, but we didn't care. We wanted a World title and after a 2nd place finish we got one, by beat another team from Tallahasse!! Go Figure!!!!!
FIRST OF ALL THE POWER THAT IS WILL NOT LET IT BE. >>REC. NO HRS. OUT FOR THE REST OF THE GAME<<<< SUPER REC 5 HRS. INNING ENDING OUT<<<< COMPITITIVE WHAT EVER MAYBE 18<<<<<< TEAMS WOULD BUILD,TOO FIT THE DIVIDION. IT'S NOT HARD FOR US THAT PLAY THIS GAME WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR THE POWERS THAT IS?????? JUST SAY THIS IS THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE!!!!!!!
not knocking anything, but I don't see nothing wrong with the divisions today, just not enough Comp teams..... why people want to get rid of homeruns in the rec division...that's pretty boring. People don't want to watch that. People don't want to play that. As a matter of fact, I was talking to some players the other day and I was like, how many black teams do u see, that are a D and E team....NONE! So, why would u want to invite that game. When your homeruns(limited) are gone, u play D and E ball in all divisions. I just don't see the logic in changing two divisions that aren't broke. If u feel me. Plus, if there are D and E black teams, they are not going to travel for BASA tourney's. Most consist of youngster's with lil jobs or no careers....who gonna sponsor? Nobody!
To My BASA Family,
Great points from all who've seen and responded to this post. Wade, 69 Jeter, Ziggy, Vernon, Esq, etc..
This is how you initiate change: Dialogue!!!
Will it happen over night, probably not. But eventually it has to be addressed.
Wade you mentioned that when the homeruns are gone we all play a little D & E Ball and you couldn't be more correct.
However, in Super Rec and Comp, that's a scary sight. When the homers are gone, the pitchers, 3rd and 1st basemen become targets for those who haven't mastered the fine art of "Small Ball". Even with homeruns, some go up to the plate with "Bad Intentions."
To correctly place teams where they belong there have to be rules in place that will force coaches/teams to step their games up. If we don't address this soon, it may be too late. I don't want "Blood on Someone's Hands" to be the reason we do the "Right Thing."
Zero homeruns is attractive to those teams that that are in it for fun and want to sample the BASA Experience. It's unattractive to those on a mission to win world, but don't want to face the heat of Super Rec. (60+ Teams at Worlds)
3-6 Homeruns is perfect for super rec. It will continue to be BASA's Show Pony/Cash Cow. (80 - 100+ teams at Worlds)
Those Teams/Sponsors with the desire to assemble the best talent the world has to offer, let them play comp. (Primetime, Class Act, Godfather, Pace, 5-0, BOAM, Graystone, BBQ, Atlanta Storm, etc...) 10-12 Homeruns. (30 - 40+) Teams at Worlds)
Let's keep this going!!
The goal is DIALOGUE.
WB # 24
I love the idea of a 30 to 40 team competitive division!! Right now the showcase division is Super Rec, shouldn't showcase division eventually be Competitive? When we all were in high school the goal was to make the varsity squad, not the JV squad. The stands were packed for the varsity games not the JV games. Making the competitive division the showcase division again like it used to be will only happen with the assistance of the people in charge along with the cooperation of the teams playing. Right now there is no incentive to move up to competitive because the division is treated like the red-headed step child with only a few teams to play against. If there were 30 to 40 teams in competitive teams wouldn't be as reluctant to move up. I think the way to get there is to reduce the Home Runs in all divisions. Rec= 0 hrs, super rec= 3 hrs, competitive= 6 or 8hrs. I think you have to reduce it in competitive in order to make the super rec teams that move up feel like they at least have a chance.
2 Cent,
Any reduction of homeruns in the competitive level, results in a lot of ball up the middle and at people.
Most don't do it intentionally, but some do. We are all afraid to "Turn on The ball" for fear of hitting a homerun for an out.
I also wouldn't view competitive as the "Varsity" of softball. There are a lot of people in Super Rec that might disagree with that perception. I got tired of spending 5 inning trying to get hits. I wanted to come out of the crouch and hit it like I knew I could. It's hard to get 20-30 hits every weekend. 15 hits and a few homers was more attractive.
Right Now Competitive is the "Fat Chick/Ugly Dude" that you hook up with, but ignore in public or when the lights are on.
WB, you have some good ideas. There's been great feedback from your post. Personally I'd like to see more teams in the Competitive Division. I play in the Super Rec. not only because I enjoy playing with The Storm, but because there are more teams. Half the time the Comp is not even making. I enjoyed my days playing with Colbert Plumbing and B&B, but where do we go, what do we do to build that division to where it once was? If you increase HR's in Super Rec, they won't ever move up! If you make the HR's in Comp higher and drop HR's in Super Rec. teams won't move up!
Like Blue Tick said, most good teams in Super Rec are going to hit there HR's. There's easily 10 teams or better in Rec & Super Rec that can play up and should! However, I don't think 12 HR's will help the Comp division because unless they are made to play up, most super rec teams won't play 12 HR's! I think the first step is to classify teams correctly and make them play where the should!
I'm in agreement about doing something before someone gets hurt. Its scary hitting the ball down at some of the infielders & heaven forbid accidentally hitting a pitcher or by him!
Your better players in Super Rec hit the ball as hard or harder than most on the Comp level. Bottom line...we play in Super Rec because there's more competition, more teams. Unless BASA does something about this, the Comp division will keep declining! There's no way that some of the teams should be classified and allowed to play where they are! Sorry if I offended anyone, but that's the truth!
LOL!!!! The fat chick/ugly dude analysis is definitely on point!!! My analogy of competitive being the varsity wasn't meant to say competitive is where the best ball players play, because I don't believe that for a second. Graystone and BBQ showed us in Aiken by competing and beating a couple of the competitive with their same teams from last year. I know there are some great-great players at the super rec level for sure, what I meant was competitive is the highest level (in BASA) much like Varsity is in high school and I think eventually it needs to be made more attractive so that everyone strives to get to that level much like high school. I agree with you about the shots going up the middle when the home runs are gone, nobody wants that because have to go to work come Monday morning, but my concern is making it fair as well so the Super Rec teams that don't feel they can compete at the competitive level due to the number of home runs and due to the lack of home run hitters they may have on their team. Just a thought. I'm still laughing at your fat chick/ugly dude analysis, that's some funny-accurate stuff.
What's Up LD,
What's going on man? Hit me on the hip when you get chance. I want to follow up on what we talked about in our last conversation.
As I look into my crystal ball, here's what I see. Competitive will fizzle and become an after thought. Winning the Comp world won't be that impressive of an accomplishment.
The Super Rec division will truly become SUPER REC. All of the former Comp players will join Super Rec teams and beat up on each other for years to come.
Big Swole's going to continue to hit .875+ but at the expense of the people standing in front of his line drives or the one's that don't know which direction to run to get out of the way (like Rock at the SuperDraft --Ha! Ha!). Atlanta Storm will still be the "Cadillac" that everyone's chasing.
Prime Time will continue to be overlooked, but be one of the last teams standing.
We will all continue to have a blast every weekend. The Superdraft, Aikens, Nelly's tournament and the many host parties will continue to be off the chain.
BASA will survive!!!!
Say what you want, Competitive is on life support and the plugs about to be pulled. As we (Comp players) trickle down to Super Rec. it's going to get even harder to win that elusive World Championship. It's going to be quite an accomplishment just making it to Saturday evening!!!
WB
HEY WB I SHOULD THANK U GUYS FOR MAKING US A BETTER TEAM BECAUSE IT SEEMED LIKE WE ALWAYS PLAYED AGAINST EACH OTHER WHEN U GUYS HAD ALL THAT FIRE POWER U KNOW WE WERE LIKE RIVALRIES WITH MUCH LOVE FOR EACH OTHER UNLIKE ALOT OF TEAMS TODAY.
Hey bingo if the powers that be cared about pitchers getting hit then no foul ball after 1 strike means more balls up the middle. What they should do is after you hit your hr limit any ball over fence is a single. This is used in texas and it works, why hit up the middle hit it over a get a single plus nobody is automatic there will be alot of fly outs. If a player is on base and a batter hits a hr single the man on base advances one base. There is a time limit so the game will go no longer than normal.
Well W.Brown, The way it is looking for the competitive teams to survive on the BASA circuit, the competitive teams just will have to change their name and drop down and play Super Rec, like I said if they just add 2 more homeruns and make it an out after they have used them up. It will work out, because how many games have we played in and didn't use up all our homeruns.If teams can move up and play competitive in a tournment, competitive should be able to drop down one level and play. U got teams right now that are playing Super Rec, that will back out of a tournament if a certain team is playing in it. Now that's crazy when team calls ahead and want to know what teams are in a tournament.
Willie you know I agree with you all the way..But we (Atlanta Storm)is not a 12 Home run hitting team...Now peep this!!!!!
2 Divisions like it used to be..
Rec 3 Homeruns
Comp 7 Homeruns
The 7 include, all Super Rec and Comp. teams..I think that will be a whole lot better..You will get more teams.....
Captain Smallz
Atlanta Storm #3
Hello Everyone this is good dialogue. All have good points but I agree with Smallz make it two divisions and 4 and 8 hr's for the rec and comp! With all the bats being made today this should nto be a problem for rec teams and I think it would allow everyone to play!
What up Captain Smallz. I like that thought too. That would kind of balance things again! We're gonna loose one division if something doesn't happen soon!
Yeah, I understand what you are saying WBrown and I know that some of ya'll hit rockets. Some of the Super Rec teams are stacked and should be playing in Comp...Smallz idea was a good idea because some teams just aren't the 10 hr hitting teams. I know I don't want to play Rec my whole career. It's about time for me to step up to another level anyway. But everybody has very good points and they should be taken into consideration.
Captain Smallz has Spoken. BASA 2 Divisions like it used to be!!
I'm Feeling you Cap. BASA make it Happen. You don't lose any money and we all get to play the way we used to.
There's nothing more enjoyable that a BASA weekend. Gorgeous women, delicious food, cold beer, and most importantly, good softball being played.
Remember when there were so many good games coming up that you spent the whole weekend at the ballpark cheering and routing for friends.
Now we're so spread out you get nosebleeds.
Smallz,
Unless I am mistaken, your coach is the hold up. When there are not enough Comp teams, the early word was that Comp teams would be able to play down. But the Storm threatened to boycott those tournaments and would tell all ATL teams to do the same. Correct me if I am wrong.
I think that it should be three division but change the HR limit
Rec 1 HR then an out
Super 3 HR then an out
Comp 6 HR then an out
Because If you do only 2 division with 4hr & 7Hr that will create a problem for the rec teams because it would no reason for the super rec teams to move up because they get 5hr's now and to change to 4 would be no big deal.
Fam,
These are all great points, and with today's bat technology we may need to look at Runs Scored when classifying teams. Regardless of HR limit, a good hitting Super Rec Team can still put up 30+ Runs consistently. You can argue that any team that is CONSISTENTLY scoring 30+ plus runs and consistenly winning or finishing in the top of the Super Rec Division should be classified as Comp. This is why I agree with Wille B, a 30-40 team Comp. Division would also include the high run produceing teams and increase the Entertaninment value at a lot the BASA Events. I think It would be great to see Atlanta Storm or Class Act bangin with GF or Prime Time with no homeruns in the Bank. Smallz, your team does not have to consistenly hit 12 home runs if it can consistently put up a high run total.
Parity,
I agree with Wille B, we need to save the Comp. Division and find a way to create more parity at the top of every division (if possible). It is never good when a just a couple of teams dominate a division. Winning World is a great accomplishment even in pee wee league. Winning Multiple World Titles at the same level is only impressive if your at the Highest Possible Level.
